Joel Osteen…Meet Job »
Posted By pacodecabra 1 month, 3 weeks ago in ReligionThe Biblical account of Job emphasizes that throughout his ordeal Job did not sin against God by cursing him. This doesn’t fit very well with the “prosperity gospel” message so many are flocking to today, a message that says Christians with enough faith will always be healthy and wealthy, and those who suffer in these areas do so because of a lack of faith.
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vettenut1 month, 3 weeks ago
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I would not want to be in this author's shoes.
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Why?
Because I believe that ANY Christian who publicly attacks or attempts to besmirch any other Christian Minister WILL HAVE the blessing and favor of God removed from their own ministry.
Christians are NOT to be cannibals. We are NOT to openly attack other Christians. To do so only opens the door for the Enemy to use those attacks against the Kingdom of God, and against ALL Christians (as in "implied guilt by association")
Let's see, in the Gospel of John, chapter 13, verse 35, Jesus says, "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you constantly and forcefully criticize one another."
NOT!!!
If we have disagreements with other believers, we are to address them gently and privately for the purpose of restoration and unity in the Kingdom (Galatians 6:1-5, Matthew 18:15-17 and Ephesians 4:3).
It is said that Christians are the only ones who, when in battle, shoot their own wounded. Sad, but many times true......
Yes, we are to constantly be vigilant, comparing the works and doctrines of other Christians to the Word of God.
Yes, there are some who are self-appointed "guardians of the Truth," albeit without Biblical mandate to act in such a manner!
But, as Christians, let's keep our doctrinal critiques private.
Let's NOT provide cheap and dirty ammunition to the Enemy by attacking one another!-
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Justice4All1 month, 3 weeks ago
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Good commentsand I rarely give a pos to people promoting Christianity.
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I stopped going to church 30 years ago primarily because they were constantly criticizing all the other religions. And I don't just mean, Islam or Judism which don't follow the three gods in one deal. It was the Methodists, Baptists, Catholics and others that were actually very similar. -
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Bkumm1 month, 3 weeks ago
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"Christians are NOT to be cannibals." Really? Then what's with the whole, "This is my body which is given unto you."
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Don't answer, I know the answer, but you DO practice a form of ritualistic cannibalism every time you take Communion.
As for "unity in the Kingdom", Christianity has more individual sects than any other religion. Sooooo....
Christianity (as practiced as a religion) is just like any other group that holds power over people with fear and coercion. It's all about the Benjamin's, baby.
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pacodecabra1 month, 3 weeks ago
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You quote John, but ignore that he also called the false teachers "anti-christs," and we should do no less.
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Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin." (Luke 17:1-2)
Jesus also called the scribes and Pharisees blind guides, and we should be alert for blind guides who call themselves Christians. Those who preach a prosperity gospel are heretics, not brothers.
Osteen would not say on Larry King that he believes Jesus is the only way to salvation, and only said it months later after much criticism from evangelical leaders. Given that, you apparently have a much broader definition of "Christian" than I would consider Biblical.-
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vettenut1 month, 3 weeks ago
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pdc:
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Thanks for your reply.
Firstly, I do not defend Joel Osteen. That's not in my comment, nor in my train of thought.
Secondly, my comment was a "caution," not a condoning of any particular person or doctrinal stream.
Thirdly, if you want to critique my doctrinal "narrowness" or lack thereof, my reply to the Larry King question is, "I do not simply say that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, of myself. My opinion in this matter is immaterial, since I am not the source of ultimate Truth, and my opinion does not affect ultimate Truth in any way. The important thing is that JESUS HIMSELF said that. He DECLARED that He is the ONLY way to the Father. I simply point to that. I believe by faith that He was telling the TRUTH when He said that. Period."
You see, pdc, we agree on that point 100%.
Where we disagree is whether or not we as Christians have license to openly attack other Christians or Christian ministries.
I believe the Biblical commands regarding handling disagreements with other Christians (some cited above) make very clear that we are to address our disagreements with other Christians privately and prayerfully, in brotherly love, not openly and aggressively in the public arena, so as to create spectacles of ourselves and our disagreements.
I believe that private denouncements of heretics and false prophets are another matter, and SHOULD TAKE PLACE in the context of the local Congregation, or in other private forums.
You believe that it is OK to publicly make judgmental remarks, and to pronounce certain persons as "damned to hell" because you believe their doctrine(s) are not Biblical.
Do you have equal standing to judge these matters, on the same level as Jesus, or the Apostle John, who were under divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit to speak/write those words?
Can you see into Joel Osteen's heart, and know EXACTLY what he believes?
Or are you simply repeating things that you heard others (whom you admire) say regarding other Christians?
I simply advise caution in our public discourse. That's all.
"Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
1 Samuel 16:6-8
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cowboygrandpa1 month, 3 weeks ago
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"Galatians 5:16-24
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Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."
Does not the lusting after money bring envy and strife into ones life ?? If prosperity is the goal, why even bring Christ into the equation. He was a humble servant, who had not even His own place to call His own. Yet He had more than all the riches in this earth.
I prefer to be in the Spirit and not in the flesh. We will be known by our fruit, not by our worldly goods.
Besides to allow false doctrines to be spewed forth as part of Christianity is what the antichrist is trying to accomplish.
Prosperity, health and wealth, freedom to live in sin, greed is good, do not question your teachers, just follow their interpretation of the Bible... These are the things that satan needs to break up those who have no understanding and are searching for the Truth.
We have to love our brothers and sisters enough to state where they are going wrong. If they will not accept it bring it before them with others to reaffirm the wrongness. If they still will not accept it, who would have fellowship with one who claims to be in Christ, yet allows the lies of satan to dissuade him of the truth.
It is more loving to discipline one who has done wrong and bring him back, than to allow him to wander into hell, because we did not want to seem to be judgemental.-
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vettenut1 month, 3 weeks ago
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cbg:
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Of course, as Christians, we are to confront other believers who are in error!
I simply do not see a "carte blanche" in the Scriptures for us to do that in a public manner.
Certain things are best done on an individual basis. I firmly believe that MUCH OF THE TIME that is the best strategy
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Redneck1 month, 3 weeks ago
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You know people like to bring up Job when trying to discredit teaching Joel Osteen is accused of bringing. But if one reads the book of Job one will discover the whole trial lasted only eighteen months. At the end of the trial Job received twice what he lost except for the number of children which was the same at the end as in the beginning. Those who cite Job seem to teach we should expect a lifetime of poverty and similar trials with no end in sight.
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The lesson of Job is not the trial or that God "let it happen." The lesson is that Job came to a new revelation of God. God corrected his viewpoint. I will leave it to those who will study the book again to determine what changed. But let us not forget that Job was rich before the trial and twice as rich afterward. Most who cite Job as their example for attacking the message of prosperity ignore this fact and in fact seem to want us to believe Christians should be poor. And that one can only be spiritual if one is poor. (Perhaps they should take a vow of poverty and refuse Social Security benefits and retirement plans!!!) Money and riches is not the problem and the lesson in Job is not about the riches. The lesson is about trusting God and personal reliance. Our opinions do need to be altered to embrace true knowledge God seeks to give. It is also about the grace of God.
Job's friends said, "this calamity has come upon you because there is a fault or a secret sin in your life. That can be the only reason." That is just as wrong as it is to say "you are rich and blessed because you have done everything right and God is rewarding you; you earned it." The Bible says, "it is God who gives the power to get wealth." While we are at it, are Abraham, or King David people God considers to be "spiritual and people of faith?" Second question, "were they wealthy?" AND to whom did they give the credit for that and what did they do with their wealth?
Last question have you ever read Deuteronomy chapter 28? What does it mean "I will make you the head and not the tail; you shall not borrow but be the lender...." There are many physical blessings listed there. All are covenant blessings. Are we not Covenant People and if we have a Better Covenant that Israel had then should we expect to have less blessings?-
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pacodecabra1 month, 3 weeks ago
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Red --
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I quote from the article:
"Note that none of these verses condemn having money or possessions; the condemnation is for those who love the things of the world more than the things of God. If you follow a “name it and claim it” theology, then you are by definition storing up treasures on earth and loving the world more than God."
In the case of Job, it's not that he was supposed to be poor. It was his response to suffering...the prosperity gospel folks would have told him he had no faith.
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Natureboy1 month, 3 weeks ago
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I'm not a christian.
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But it doesn't take much for ANYBODY to see the wide gulf between the message of Joel Osteen, Reverend Ike and the like, and the words of Jesus as reported in the new testament.
Show me the nail holes, not the bankrolls.
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