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Posted by: Redneck 1 month, 4 weeks ago
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Redneck1 month, 4 weeks ago
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You know people like to bring up Job when trying to discredit teaching Joel Osteen is accused of bringing. But if one reads the book of Job one will discover the whole trial lasted only eighteen months. At the end of the trial Job received twice what he lost except for the number of children which was the same at the end as in the beginning. Those who cite Job seem to teach we should expect a lifetime of poverty and similar trials with no end in sight.
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The lesson of Job is not the trial or that God "let it happen." The lesson is that Job came to a new revelation of God. God corrected his viewpoint. I will leave it to those who will study the book again to determine what changed. But let us not forget that Job was rich before the trial and twice as rich afterward. Most who cite Job as their example for attacking the message of prosperity ignore this fact and in fact seem to want us to believe Christians should be poor. And that one can only be spiritual if one is poor. (Perhaps they should take a vow of poverty and refuse Social Security benefits and retirement plans!!!) Money and riches is not the problem and the lesson in Job is not about the riches. The lesson is about trusting God and personal reliance. Our opinions do need to be altered to embrace true knowledge God seeks to give. It is also about the grace of God.
Job's friends said, "this calamity has come upon you because there is a fault or a secret sin in your life. That can be the only reason." That is just as wrong as it is to say "you are rich and blessed because you have done everything right and God is rewarding you; you earned it." The Bible says, "it is God who gives the power to get wealth." While we are at it, are Abraham, or King David people God considers to be "spiritual and people of faith?" Second question, "were they wealthy?" AND to whom did they give the credit for that and what did they do with their wealth?
Last question have you ever read Deuteronomy chapter 28? What does it mean "I will make you the head and not the tail; you shall not borrow but be the lender...." There are many physical blessings listed there. All are covenant blessings. Are we not Covenant People and if we have a Better Covenant that Israel had then should we expect to have less blessings?-
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pacodecabra1 month, 4 weeks ago
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Red --
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I quote from the article:
"Note that none of these verses condemn having money or possessions; the condemnation is for those who love the things of the world more than the things of God. If you follow a “name it and claim it” theology, then you are by definition storing up treasures on earth and loving the world more than God."
In the case of Job, it's not that he was supposed to be poor. It was his response to suffering...the prosperity gospel folks would have told him he had no faith.-
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Redneck1 month, 3 weeks ago
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I disagree with the broad summations regarding both "name it and claim it" and the "prosperity gospel" camps. With regard to Job what was his response to suffering? Give me a quote. I agree with that perhaps with regard to his friends by their comments. But how did Job respond?
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From your quote the author declares those who "name it and claim it" are storing up treasures on earth. That is a broad condemnation which is not what the teaching is about at all. Some may be foolish enough to believe it and practice it that way but they do not last long. What is actually taught is that Jesus said faith requires one to speak one's faith. Both Jesus and Paul say that if one believes what one prays with come to pass then one must speak in line with the answer and one's faith. The author is attributing motives to anyone who is perceived to be practicing this teaching. In Bible terms he is JUDGING other servants of God. We are to speak about the error of doctrine but when we JUDGE the motives of others the Bible judges us. The teachers I have heard say one cannot claim something the Bible does not promise. They say you must have Scripture for it but then you must speak your faith in line with the Word. Then they teach from the Word that God wants to give financial prosperity as well as physical health to all Covenant Believers. One can find much Scritpural support for both. The question is will we believe what the Bible promises or cling to the traditions of men? There was a group who took vows of poverty and renounced the world and taught that it was the height of spirutuality to do so. We still have the doctrine in the church and groups of people who cannot handle money without it effecting their spiritual growth and maturity.
Question: What did Job say when the calamities fell upon him? Do you know? I can quote it.-
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cowboygrandpa1 month, 3 weeks ago
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red...:
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"Job 1:20-22
20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord."
22 In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong. "
Matthew 6:19-34
"Wealth
Luke 11:34-36; 12:22-34
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. "
I know God will provide for me as He sees fit. I do not want more than He will have me have, nor do I worship the things of this life.
I used to want things, but the focus on attaining them drew my attention away from God.
Wealth is not evil, but the lusting for it is. I prefer to pray for the salvation of others, that is a treasure that glorifies God and His will.
Peace. -
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pacodecabra1 month, 3 weeks ago
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Red --
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So glad you can quote it. If you had read the article the quotes are there regarding what Job said when the calamities fell on him. It says:
When Job learned of the deaths of his children:
Job stood up and tore his robe in grief. Then he shaved his head and fell to the ground to worship. He said,
“I came naked from my mother’s womb,
and I will be naked when I leave.
The Lord gave me what I had,
and the Lord has taken it away.
Praise the name of the Lord!”
In all of this, Job did not sin by blaming God. (Job 1:20-22 NLT)
Job recognized that everything we have is given to us by God, and that our praise should not depend on our circumstances. Later, his wife had some harsh words for him, and he gives an amazing answer:
His wife said to him, “Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die.”
But Job replied, “You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?”
So in all this, Job said nothing wrong. (Job 2:9-10 NLT)
Apparently you're responding to the comments without reading the article. Have a nice one.-
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Redneck1 month, 3 weeks ago
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Read the article. Asked whether anyone knew what Job said. Aside from the quotes given here this was also said:
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Job 3:24-26 (New International Version)
24 For sighing comes to me instead of food;
my groans pour out like water.
25 What I feared has come upon me;
what I dreaded has happened to me.
26 I have no peace, no quietness;
I have no rest, but only turmoil."
Was Job worrying and fretting? Read the whole book not just the quotes lifted by the author of the article. Put it all into context. See the mindset of Job. The author has a theology and has prooftexted to support it.
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Redneck1 month, 3 weeks ago
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CowboyGrandpa quoted Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount as saying. ""Therefore do not worry, saying, What shall we eat? or What shall we drink? or What shall we wear? ... But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. " Thus Jesus said Trust God who cares for you and if you seek His rulership ALL THESE THINGS WILL be given to you." He did not say and all these things will be taken away. If our motives are impure then spiritual law kicks in and one loses things. Does God keep us? Will He provide all our material needs? Jesus said He would.
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Jesus said we are to have faith in God. Faith He will provide and give us what is needed to be a blessing. Faith rests in the faithfulness of God.
It seems to me Job was in fear and not in faith. At least in one area or one aspect of his life. He could not have pleased God if he was not in faith in any area. He lacked some understanding or revelation. By the end the flaw in his faith was corrected.
The passages cited say Job did not sin. God, when speaking with Satan, said Job was perfect. So the calamity did not come because of sin. Satan charged God with erecting a hedge around Job protecting him perhaps implying God was playing favorites with men. But each time God limited the affliction adding the words "he is in your hands." How do we place ourselves in the hands of God? By acting in faith. Fear is the opposite of faith. It is faith in calamity.
In God's promises to Israel in Duet. 28 He said what He would do for them. He would bless them above all nations so they could be a blessing to them. He was specific about material blessings of the Covenant. Then are listed all the curses which would befall them if they broke the covenant. Poverty is listed there as a curse. If we have the right attitude and motives toward riches God will entrust much to us. If we do not they can destroy us. But the call is to grow up in God not excuse our lack of knowledge of His intentions and the covenant which He has made with us.
In the Old Testament God said He would confirm the covenant with Israel by making them wealthy. He said similar things about other blessings, that the covenant is confirmed by the performance of specific promises. This means God demonstrates that we are in a Divine Relationship with Him when promises of the Word are manifest in our lives. Let us endeavor to let Him perform His Word so men may see Him.
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vettenut1 month, 3 weeks ago
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Precisely, Redneck.
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Precisely right about the prooftexting within the article!
The article was a "holy hatchet-job" from a specific, biased point of view.
I especially like your reply, wherein you say so truthfully, “We are to speak about the error of doctrine but when we JUDGE the motives of others, the Bible judges us.”
The path of those who feel compelled to live a life full of judging others is, spiritually speaking, a dangerous one indeed!
And the responses of the non-believers on this thread, such as Natureboy, Bkumm and pokydoke are illustrations of what happens when believers attack one another-- it's an opening for the skeptics, nay-sayers, Christian-haters, etc, to smirk and snipe at the "Christians" sniping at one another.
A "feeding frenzy" of a spiritual kind between Christians becomes a "feeding frenzy" of a different kind for the unbelievers!
Just as I thought would happen.........
And it did, right in front of God and everybody here on Propeller!
The attitude and behavior of Christians is on display for others, including unbelievers. Many Christians fail to realize that a majority of their "witnessing" takes place without a single word being uttered. And, sadly
I believe the lesson of this thread, as it unfolded, is self-explanatory...........
And then there’s the issue (which you so excellently addressed) of the true lesson of Job: although he was a good man, he had a “blind spot,” an area of his life in which he had not fully and in faith, trusted God. At the end of the book, Job had learned his lesson, and God rewarded him generously, as is His nature and promise.
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